Cinie

My PUMApology Of Sorts

In Barack Obama, Politics on August 28, 2009 at 2:23 pm

puma-34220Okay, where to begin?  First of all, I admit to being one of the most vocal opponents to Republican AstroTurfing of TEA Parties, townhalls and Recess Rallies against any and all things Democratic under the guise of being anti- anything Obama.  And, exposes like this Think Progress one that I came across courtesy of Edge of Forever at Not Your Sweetie, only reinforce my findings and strengthen my resolve to rail against the sneaky, fake grassroots public support tactics of the Rigid Right as vehemently and vociferously as I bitch about the same kind of Axelrovian Obaganda shenanigans from the obnoxious KoolAid ‘n’ Hopium Nation.

Be that as it may, there’s something to be said on behalf of those offended PUMAs who take exception to being labeled as merely being unduly manipulated tools of the evil right wing.  Though there is no doubt that many PUMA sites have been overly influenced by deliberate GoOPer infiltration, there’s more to the story than has as yet met the eye.

sheryl_underwood_tightWhat brought it to my attention was a HuffPo article about comedienne Sheryl Underwood, and an Orrin Hatch on Ted Kennedy interview I caught on MSNBO yesterday.  Underwood, who holds multiple degrees and is known for being, ahem…well, frank, is a self-identified Bush-loving Republican, rare as that is in the black community.  She, however, Orrin-Hatch-mug-773089enthusiastically endorsed Barack Obama, which unfortunately, is not rare among monolithically-minded African Americans, at all.  In fact, sometimes I think it’s just me, the folks at Black Agenda Report, and a handful of others against the known black ObamaWorld.  Hatch, just another rightwinger as far as I’ve always been concerned, mentioned the oxymoronic phrase “liberal Republican.”  These two incidents though, caused me to re-think, re-examine, and research what I knew and felt about the other side of the aisle.

As I reconsidered the whole Democratic/Republican dynamic, I remembered an article I came across months ago about the Republican Oath/Credo.  I recalled being intrigued by the reasonableness of the thing, and wondered what the hell such a practical set of principles had to do with the “holier-than-thou” war mongering party I knew.  From the Illinois Wesleyan University College Republicans website, the Republican Oath:

I believe that the proper function of government is to do for the people those things that have to be done but cannot be done, or cannot be done as well by individuals, and that the most effective government is closest to the people.

I believe that good government is based on the individual and that each person’s ability, dignity, freedom and responsibility must be honored and recognized.

I believe that free enterprise and the encouragement of individual initiative and incentive have given this nation an economic system second to none.

I believe that sound money policy should be our goal.

I believe in equal rights, equal justice and equal opportunity for all, regardless of race, creed, age, sex, or national origin. I believe that persons with disabilities should be afforded equal rights, equal justice, and equal opportunity as well.

I believe we must retain those principles worth retaining, yet always be receptive to new ideals with an outlook broad enough to accommodate thoughtful change and varying points of view.I believe that Americans value and should preserve their feelings of national strength and pride, and at the same time share with people everywhere a desire for peace and freedom and the extension of human rights throughout the world.

Now, while I found this same oath/credo on multiple Republican sites, like here, here, here, and here, I also found it on the official Republican National Committee site, in a link from its “About” page, and, like this guy, and this guy before me did in 2004, and June of this year, respectively, I wondered just where it fit into the current Republican mindset.   Also in 2004, this blog post attempted to reconcile the obvious dichotomy, and, in October of 2006, a poster on Democratic Underground parodied the oath with principles more in line with what most of us know about the modern day GOP.  Of course, I also came across the various controversial party loyalty oaths, especially Republican ones, with which the above are not to be confused.

So, how do you reconcile such lofty ideals with the party of intolerant and intrusive bigots that today’s Republicans seem to be, especially with their performance not only in the TEA Party town hall disruptive attempts to deny significant portions of the population access to comprehensive health care on behalf of the greedy corporate insurance entities whose interests they’ve deemed so much more important that they’ve sworn to uphold and protect them at all costs and anybody’s expense, but their equally shameful displays at Sonya Sotomayor’s confirmation hearings so fresh in our minds?  We already know that the Democrats sold their own party and ideology down the river in their Obacratic makeover, but, it’s the understanding of most of the Democratically disenfranchised that this was merely a case of “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” adaptation of the other side’s sleazy rules into their now equally sleazy playbook.  The notion that the Republicans might have been similarly co-opted by similarly ruthless and nefarious factions in recent history, never really enters our minds.

Which brings me to the “liberal Republican” thing.  Indeed, there was a Liberal Republican party, but that was more than 135 years ago and, they only lasted two years, tops, anyway.  But, that the onerous  “Southern Strategy“…

From now on, the Republicans are never going to get more than 10 to 20 percent of the Negro vote and they don’t need any more than that… but Republicans would be shortsighted if they weakened enforcement of the Voting Rights Act. The more Negroes who register as Democrats in the South, the sooner the Negrophobe whites will quit the Democrats and become Republicans. That’s where the votes are. Without that prodding from the blacks, the whites will backslide into their old comfortable arrangement with the local Democrats.

..culminating in the Reagan Republican takeover obliterated the northeastern Rockefeller Republican wing of their party was news to me.  Mainly because, when it comes to Republicans, I don’t really give a shit.  But, to be honest, socially liberal Republicans being a major faction of the ultra-conservative, “if it feels good, ban it,” Party of No is a compellingly intriguing, if not downright attractive thought.

Progressive Republican asks just what is a “liberal Republican, anyway, (what’s a “progressive Republican, for that matter, ask I) HuffPo’s Robert J. Elisberg assures us they exist,  ehow.com tells us how to be one, and, the New York Times informs us that a lot of them are pissed at being marginalized.

So, if there really are disenfranchised “liberal Republicans,” just how insidious is the infiltration of PUMA?  Are the infiltrators “liberal Republicans” seeking camaraderie and common ground, or, are they the snake in the grass weasels trying to lure the newly, though thoroughly, disillusioned former Democrats to the dark side that I think most of them are?  And, if the moderate Republicans and the centrist Democrats already co-exist peacefully under the Obacratic banner, raping and pillaging our national coffers and denying us Universal Health Care in cahoots, as I suspect, and, the conservative wing is the dominant one of the Republicans, where does that leave liberals of either party?

Just as conservative Democrats, notably the “Blue Dogs,” and the “New Democrats,” are considered by “the left of the left” to be “Democrats In Name Only,” many conservatives feel that “liberals” in their party can only qualify as RINOs.  CNN “autopsied” liberal Republicans in May, declaring Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins the last of a dying breed, and, Michelle Malkin gleefully threw dirt on the metaphorical liberal Republican grave when she cosigned Bloomberg’s declaration that the “moderate” Republican, John McCain’s “shocking” choice of “socially conservative” Sarah Palin repudiated the once powerful “moderate” Eastern Establishment.  And, as mentioned earlier, Orrin Hatch believes there are only 2 “liberals” left in the Senate on his side of the aisle.

So, where does that leave black Republicans, especially the Obama supporting ones like Underwood and Colin Powell?  RINOs?  From Underwood’s actthere’s only so “socially conservative” she can be considered.  Yet, the majority of black Republicans, and, a heck of a lot of black Democrats, are pretty durned “conservative” on social issues.  In fact, it was this conservatism that allowed the Bush administration to woo big names like Rev. Eddie Long and his colleague, Rev. Bernice King, daughter of Martin Luther King, to their “faith-based” side, and accounts for the influence of “the black vote” for Prop 8, according to some.  But, as we examined this counter-exploitation on the Democratic side in other posts, though black Republicans like to claim Dr. King as one of them, his wife, Coretta Scott King, as well as many of his closest associates, were extremely liberal Democrats, and, there’s not a lot of evidence that Bernice is actually following in her Dad’s footsteps.  However, it seems to me, given all the myriad categories black voters can potentially fall into, conservative, liberal, moderate, Republican, Democrat, etc., it’s a wonder so many of us can be depended upon to vote the same way so often.

Given the number of factions within factions, I suppose it is incumbent upon each individual to decide for him/herself where they fit in the political spectrum.  Doing so has a lot to do with exactly where one directs one’s outrage about the current political situation.  It also helps to keep all these variations in mind when promoting the formation of a new “3rd Party.”  Third party of what?  Who?  Liberal, moderate, centrist, conservative, gay rights supporting, pro-life, gun-toting, tree hugging, creationist, atheist, bitter-knitting Soccer Moms?  I guess, like the Puma cats in the wild, PUMAs can be any one of a number of things, united in their “catness,” wherever you find them, whatever you call them.  Me, I’ll stick to the disillusioned, disenfranchised, liberal Democrat who’s pissed at the Obots and the FreedomWorker Riders, side of the aisle, thank you very much.

And, you can call me whatever the hell you think fits.

puma_concolocor

  1. Jamaal, you make no sense. You say there’s no litmus test, then insert one of your liking. I’m not going to argue semantics with you, or continue to allow people to repeat the same things, ad nauseum. I’m asking you to honor a time out on this, if you don’t, I’ll impose one. “Party Unity My Ass” means just that. No “party unity,” not “no party.”

    • Done and done, as it is your site where you can “impose” what you wish. Some people really get off on imposing what they want onto others. So I will take a permanent time out from here, and, from my own platforms elsewhere, publicly fight against anyone imposing their personal partisanship onto PUMA.

      • Am I supposed to be broken up because you threaten not to comment here again? You never commented here before you decided to qualify my PUMAness. Believe me, that won’t be missed.

        It’s funny that you call yourself a Democrat and claim PUMA is anti-partisan, and I’m a registered Independent who says you’re wrong. Whatever. I am PUMA, and I, and many other original and longtime PUMAs, have no interest in embracing rightwingers, their talking points and/or agenda just because you want to fall for their “Kumbayah, Brother,” con. And, it is a con when you can get “registered Democrats” to advance your cause, campaign on your behalf, vote for your candidates.

        Fight on, Jamaal, fight on.

  2. Cinie: What you think about Gen Russell Honore taking on David Vitter in the LA primary for Senator?

    • I admit I don’t know a lot about local Louisiana politics, Daki, but, from what this article says about Melancon, “John Wayne” Honore might be just as “moderate.”

      In fact, Charlie Melancon’s announcement video centered on his relative social and fiscal conservatism as well, citing his support for small business tax cuts, a balanced budget, higher military and veteran spending. He only said he was a Democrat once, but with the words, “I’m a pro-life, pro-gun, Southern Democrat. I have an “A” rating with the NRA, and I have been an avid hunter and fisherman my entire life. I am a proud centrist — a Blue Dog — a straight-up-the-middle fighter for he little guy who is struggling to make ends meet. That’s why my most rewarding moment as a Congressman came from a partnership with private organizations, Republicans, and Democrats after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. We came together to alleviate the suffering and ensure people received the help they needed. Party politics was the last thing on my mind. I got into public service to help people, period.”

      http://www.bayoubuzz.com/News/Louisiana/Politics/General_Russell_Honore_To_Run_Vs_David_Vitter_In_Louisiana_US_Race__9439.asp

      And, he is a self-described “African American Creole” which, as we know, counts for a lot in politics today. Add the hero thing, and like the guy in the article says, “if he runs, he wins.”

  3. Now anyone want to offer any insights as to why Hillary Clinton Forum recently changed to Common Ground Politics.

    http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net is now http://www.commongroundpolitics.net

    • And everyone here, as well as those lurking, you can bet your sweet asses (that is said in the most loving of ways) that a reference to comments in this blog thread went out to Normita Fenn (in a round about way) who was on the JSND conference calls in which some of you speak.

  4. Wow, for those that have the courage to have ears that hear!

  5. I do remember that there were Republican PUMAs, however.
    ——————–
    Standing in a garage doesn’t make someone a car.
    Republican Pumas is an oxymoron. Mutually exclusive.
    Democrats were the people who were disenfranchised by Bush5 Inc.
    Democrrats, ex- and exiled are Pumas. Republicans showed up at Pumas sites to defeat obama, nothing more, generally speaking. I think we accepted their temporary presence in order to get the job done. But they were never Pumas, it’s an impossibility.

    The problem is, the republicans didnt leave after election day, as many of us OPs were expecting, waiting, hoping…

    • Grrrrrrrrrrrr, girl, grrrrrrrrr!

    • False. You can be Republican and be a PUMA. PUMA is anti-partisan, no one person can exclude someone from the movement based on an arbitrary party label.

  6. Good Bye Cine!!!!

  7. I asked you Jamaal, why were there ever Republican PUMAs, and you answered

    I’d assume because there were Republican Hillary supporters. I guess not every Republican is a evil right-wing, teabagger plotting to convert me to the darkness.

    So, if they’re not “evil right-wing, teabagger(s) plotting to convert me to the darkness,” which party are they showing their ass?

    • Well it would seem that if you are a Republican, and you support an avowed Democrat like Hillary, and you consider yourself a part of a movement whose members are “largely” (but not totalty) left-leaning, then you would be showing the Republican party your ass, no?

      • Depends.

        On what your motives are.

        At any rate, if you are a Republican willing to turn against your party and show them your ass for the sake of a candidate from the opposition, can you really be considered a Republican?

        Had I rejected the Democrats in favor of John McCain, or Sarah Palin, for that matter, I would question my own loyalties and beliefs.

        I suspect that any Republican who joined PUMA did so for the same reason they participated in Operation Chaos, or they’re anti-Obama, like most other Republicans, and I’ve seen no evidence to the contrary.

        • Can you really be considered a Republican and support an opposition candidate? Yes. I don’t think it’s extraordinary for Republicans or Democrats to endorse or vote for a candidate from another party. I think exit polling and any number of cross-party endorsements bear that out.

          It appears to me that most of the PUMAsphere remains what it was in the beginning, which is anti-partisan and mostly (I stress “mostly”) left-leaning with a few exceptions. I think worries of a pro-right wing partisan Republican takeover are overheated.

          • You conveniently left out the

            willing to turn against your party and show them your ass for the sake of a candidate from the opposition,

            part of my question. And, I should have amended it to read…”candidate and movement from the opposition.”

            And, you’re welcome to your definition of PUMA, but, if I’m reading it correctly, there’s room within it for people like me who have a slightly, or entirely, different one. But, no matter, because I will continue to be the kind of PUMA I signed up to be, a Democrat in exile whose party abandoned her, causing her to reject their “unity” entreaties, not an anti-partisan mongrel.

            And, I will continue to rail against right wing encroachment when and wherever I see it, which you are free to ignore, dismiss, deny, or belittle as you see fit.

            On your blog.

            FWIW, your definition strikes me as more relevant to the NoBama/JSND coalition than PUMA.

          • Jamal,

            I have to ask you where I can find those “mostly” left leaning Puma sites? I searched the Pumasphere (like I was in the wilderness)for months trying to find one. In fact I will wager you that most today lean right and have for quite a long time.

            Please take a minute to read a comment I made below on this thread before you joined us about how Puma sites are 99.9 percent RW talking points. How I, a left leaning Puma, could not find a left leaning home in the Pumasphere. Thankfully, I found Cinie’s World and the Widdershins who both make it clear that their sites lean left. At all the others people who tried to talk from a left stance were told they were basically causing disruption and to stop it. No one has been allowed to challange RW talking points at most Puma sites. If what you say is true you will need to point me to some left leaning puma sites.

          • Caroline,

            First you will have to define these “RW talking points” and point me to them. Because I don’t see them.

            What I see is people standing up for policies which progress the country and opposing those that do not.

          • And I will continue who opposes any one person, site blog, group defining PUMA based on their own partisan biases and personal ideology.

            The entirety of PUMA does not and should subscribe to my or anyone’s personal party affiliation and ideology.

    • I think PUMA is directly connected to Hillary Clinton. If the media had treated Hillary Clinton fairly, there probably would be no PUMA’s right now.

  8. I said that from the beginning PUMA was anti-partisan and included “lefties, centrists, conservatives, Democrats, independents, AND Republicans.”

    This is where you and I disagree, and what you are trying to be sole arbiter of. As I have said before Party UNITY My Ass is different from PARTY My Ass. As I have always understood it, PUMA was a rejection of the party’s call for Democratic unity because we “didn’t have anywhere else to go.” Not a call for everybody to reject Democratic principles and flounder about ideologically.

    • Well, I can only state the facts as I remember them. In my work with PUMA and affiliated organizations last we rejected partisanship and placed country before party.

      As far as PUMA including lefties, centrists, etc., I can’t arbitrate a fact. There always were Republican, independent, left, and right PUMAs. I’ve stated that the majority were left-leaning Democrats, but I’ve also stated that there were others. And that’s simply true.

      • I don’t remember the Republican recruitment within PUMA. I remember people rejecting the rightward push from Day One, and making it very clear that we were not Republicans, nor interested in becoming them.

        • I don’t remember Republican “recruitment” either. I do remember that there were Republican PUMAs, however.

        • Cinie, you may not have been on the JSND conference calls where it became quite apparent in August that they were going to use John McCain Campaign resources to turf puma. There were fights. I tried to fight it on one call where things got pretty heated. I was told I obviously never understood what PUMA was. Just like the DefiantOne is saying now. I removed myself from JSND then. I have been fighting this since then. I was berated on other PUMA radio shows for not endorsing John McCain. I fought this for a long time and came to the conclusion it is too far gone.

          I don’t really care what happens in PUMA anymore, I am not part of it, but I do have a history and thought it would add to the conversation here.

          • No, I wasn’t in on the calls, but, I dropped JSND pretty early on, Taggles. Didn’t like their direction.

          • Just to clarify the record — because I know how rumors become truth — I’d like to say that’s not what I remember from those conference calls.

            I remember that some groups (out of the 50+ that comprised JSND) decided to work with the McCain campaign. It was never PUMAs official position that every PUMA group was partisan Republican and pro-McCain.

            The fights, as I recall, were over whether those groups that were pro-McCain, as was their prerogative, were still part of the JSND coalition. Since PUMA was anti-partisan, not anti-Republican, it was decided that anybody could take any position on McCain-Palin they wanted. Which was the correct decision, I believe.

            There is no ideological litmus test for PUMA, and I hope it will remain that way as PUMA evolves.

          • What I remember is that it was that kind of infighting bs that made me start my own PUMA blog. And, to this day, those PUMAs who are more comfortable being Democrats in exile than rudderless political drifters, have found, and will continue to find, refuge here.

      • Oh, and one more FYI. I have read and respected your writing for a long time. We are in disagreement over this point, but, I’ve commented on your posts before, in my name, and early on, when I used another sign-in on someone else’s account.

      • Sounds a lot like John McCains “Country First” campaign slogan, no Jamal??

        And what you are basically saying is that it is entirely OK to not be just anti Obama in PUMA, but anti all democratic values. And you couldn’t be anti Republican. JSND was Will Bower’s (along with others), who as far as I know considered himself a PUMA. So thank you for letting everyone know how the RW turfing began in PUMA.

        It was never ok to be a PUMA and also an arm of the John McCain campaign and the GOP. They claimed to be anti partisan and always claimed everyone could vote for whom they wanted. That little move made that talking point moot. JSND did use John McCain campaign resources during the GE fight and that is where I drew the line and was castigated for doing so.

        So you tell me Jamal, who was really welcome. Do not try to re write the history of this.

        • JSND itself did accept John McCain Campaign resources!!!!!!!

          I want to be entirely clear here. Not just some “Republican” PUMA, if there is such a thing…….. lol

        • Um, I’ve said nothing of the sort. I’ve said PUMA was officially anti-partisan and non-ideological, I never argued that PUMAs should hold or oppose any party’s values, and I don’t recall mentioning Obama at all.

          I’m not rewriting history, I lived it. JSND did not belong to Will Bower, that’s not the truth. JSND was a coalition of several groups, the majority of which did not work with the McCain campaign.

          I can’t help it that hissy fits were thrown by those who could not handle the fact that “some” did as a means to an end and choose to feel unwelcome.

          My listserv did not work in any official manner with McCain-Palin. My blog is still called DEMOCRATS Over Nominating Elitists. Not former Democrats. Those who left the party (to become independents? Republicans?) can’t make me feel unwelcome in a movement I helped create. They’re free to do what they want.

          So if people felt unwelcome — and I don’t know why because nobody forced anything to do or believe anything — then that sounds like a personal problem.

          But PUMA has always been anti-partisan, and PUMAs have always worked for progress where they saw fit in whichever way they chose. I don’t see any drastic change that’s a cause for alarm.

          • PUMA is not anti-partisan. And you can shout it all day long. Anybody who names their blog Democrats over anything calling the movement they represent anti-partisan sounds stupid. You’re better than that. But, I’m really getting tired of arguing with you. I told you, say what you want on your blog. On this one, PUMA is not anti-partisan.

          • PUMA is anti-partisan. It’s not an arm of any party in the party system.

            On this blog the sky may be red. But that doesn’t make the sky any less blue. On this blog, PUMA may be a tool for Democrats to turf, and on others it may be a tool for Republicans to turf.

            No one can control what people do with their own organization. But no one can make PUMA partisan, when it is not.

          • PUMA is not anti-partisan, as in “eschewing party politics.” I am not against partisanship, I am against the Obacrats taking over the Democratic party. That’s not anti-partisan, that’s anti-Obacrat. I will not unify with that faction of the Democrats, that doesn’t mean I reject Democratic principles. And, as I said, under your definition, anybody is welcome to call themselves PUMA, even if they’re clueless enough to believe that you’re actually in charge of what PUMA is.

          • “I am not against partisanship, I am against the Obacrats taking over the Democratic party. That’s not anti-partisan, that’s anti-Obacrat.”

            And again, that’s what you are. That’s not what PUMA is. You seem to be insisting that PUMA must subscribe to what you are, but you alone do not get to decide that.

            As I have pointed out before, I have remained a Democrat. That does not give me the right to say that PUMA is a tool of the Democratic Party when it is not.

            PUMA is anti-partisan in that it is a not a tool of any party. People are welcome to call themselves whatever they want — how can anyone control that? That doesn’t make PUMA a partisan organization, because it isn’t.

            PUMA is not “[Insert name here]’s personal ideological litmus test group for Democrats only.”

          • JSND worked with and took resources from the John McCain Campaign.

            Also, Will Bower was PUMA and spokesperson for JSND.

            Diane Mantouvalous another proprietor of JSND went to the RNC Convention.

            The logo for JSND was a PUMA.

            They took that and turned it into anyone’s welcome, anti obama.

            That is bullshit and that is what I fought on conference calls, which you refer to as hissy fits…..

    • I believe PUMA started after the media ganged up on Hillary Clinton, how dishonest the caucus contests were, how Barack Obama accepted tens of millions of dollars of fraudulent donations from people with names like Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse.

      So to say nobody can say what PUMA is, is misleading. PUMA’s genesis came from Hillary Clinton not being treated fairly by either the media or the democratic party. Even Mr. Dean stated at one point, Whomever has the most momentum over the final 10 weeks of the campaign will be the nominee.

      Well, that turned out to be Hillary Clinton, who won something like 54% of the vote over the final 10 weeks of voting. Or, did Mr. Howard Dean mean whomever gets more momentum by BRIBING delegates to switch? Sounds like the genesis of PUMA, no?

      • PUMA started May 31/June 1, 2008, after Howard Dean spent the first part of the RBC meeting pleading for party unity. All of us knew that was the foreplay before the committee screwed us. Once they came all over us and the screwing became official, SM 77 said, “Party Unity My Ass” over at the Confluence. That’s the PUMA I signed onto.

  9. There is debate as it PUMA’s origination; as far as I know I coined the term, using it in a post on my now defunct blog DONE in April 2008.

    In context, I wrote then of those Democrats pushing Hillary and her voters out of the primaries: “This is not party unity. This is puma — party unity my ass!” My buddies Will Bower and Thuc Nyguen picked up on it, and eventually joined with many others to form PUMA.

    Given that PUMA means “party unity my ass” I don’t get how people can complain about its partisan affiliation since it’s designed not to have one!

    From the beginning, PUMA was explicilty anti-partisan. Not liberal. Not conservative. Not centrist. Not Republican. Not Democrat. It was anti-PARTISAN.

    Why? Look at the name, folks: it’s “Party Unity My Ass.” Not liberal my ass. Not conservative my ass. Not Republican my ass. It’s “PARTY unity my ass.”

    This is not rocket science. PUMA by definition means that party does not matter. By definition!

    Some people want it to be party unity my ass — except for Republicans. Or party unity my ass — until I disagree with you on gay marriage. But that’s wishful thinking.

    I was asked many times to weigh in on these issues regarding PUMA. I refrained because PUMA iss grassroots and organic, and I did not (still don’t) want one person’s biases shaping the PUMA discourse to the exclusion of other perspective. So aside from possibly reposting this at my Progressive Examiner site, this will likely be the first and last time I weigh in on an intra-PUMA dustup.

    But note: when people say they’re leaving PUMA because there’s too many Republicans, it means they didn’t get it from the beginning. It’s “party unity my ass.” Not “no Republicans allowed.”

    Yes, having been started by Hillary supporters, were are a mostly Democratic, left-leaning coalition. But “mostly” is not 100%. It’s “party unity my ass” not “Hillary supporters of America.”

    Why would anybody think that 18 million plus voters would be 100% homogenous? Let’s get real.

    Throughout this journey, I have met Hillary supporters all over. I was thrilled to discover that they were lefties, centrists, conservatives, Democrats, independents, AND Republicans. I am sorry that some people can’t deal with that.

    Because we were so different, PUMA could not have ideological purity or a policy platform. PUMA is anti-partisan, which itself has proved impactful. A mass group of anti-partisan voters was a radical idea in America last year, and I see PUMA bearing fruit on a daily basis. I could go on for hours about what PUMA has accomplished directly and indirectly. I am very proud of this movement; a lot of people owe us whether they know it or not.

    No one person has the right to place any specific ideology on PUMA, and those who don’t like that — please leave. Because you just don’t get it and never did.

    • Okay, Jamaal, there’s a lot with which to quibble in your comment, if one were to choose to do so. I do not. However, whatever your definition of PUMA, any attempt to sway people from their personal ideology and into a particular camp should be objectionable. Therefore, infiltration from Republicans looking to pick up members is offensive.

      The vast majority of, if not all, PUMAs were and are HRC supporters. The vast majority of those are/were Democrats who refused to toe the party line and ride the Unity Pony. That doesn’t mean we checked our beliefs at the PUMA door. Some of us registered as Independents, but by no means all, or most of us did. Our primary concern was, and is, with the Democratic party. For me, PUMA never meant “party” doesn’t matter. It meant “party unity” doesn’t. There’s a difference.

      • “any attempt to sway people from their personal ideology and into a particular camp should be objectionable.”

        And that is why I explicitly wrote: “No one person has the right to place any specific ideology on PUMA.” I don’t know how to put it more clearly.

        I also pointed out, as you echoed, that PUMAs were largely pro-Hillary and left-leaning. But that never held true for everybody. So if people thought PUMA was an ideological movement, THEY were mistaken.

        We toyed more than once in conference calls with coming up with a set of ideological principles. We could never agree because the politics – even amongst the organizers – were just too different. And even if we had, why should the PUMA grassroots be beholden to the centralized decision of a dozen people anyway?

        If people want PUMA to represent anti-conservatism or anti-Republicanism, then they shoould go join an anti-conservative, anti-Republican group. That. Is. Not. What. Puma. Is. Never was. Not going to be.

        Neither is it pro-Republican or pro-conservative. PUMA is anti-partisan. There is no ideological standard, and being anti-partisan is powerful enough in this age of hyperpartisanship that there need not such a standard for PUMA to have impact.

        Now it’s fine not to like that. But don’t denigrate PUMA because it won’t (cannot and never did) fit your personal standard of ideological purity.

        I choose to keep considering myself Democrat, albeit a thoroughly disaffected one with some rather unorthodox views. Does that give me the right to claim only Democrats — not independents, not Republicans — can be PUMAs?

        If you are the type of person who writes off a talking point as immediately wrong because it has “Republican” attached, again, you are obsessed with party label. PUMA is not. And that’s for you to deal with, not for PUMA to reorganize itself around.

        • First of all, who died and made you sole arbiter of PUMAness? Where is PUMA ideology written other than inside your forehead? You can’t have it both ways. Either PUMA is a group of disaffected Democrats, or it’s not. And, without consensus from someone other than you, I choose to hold it to the disaffected Democrat standard. At least, on this blog. If the flag is a different color in your world, so be it. But don’t you dare come here and get all high and mighty with me about mine.

          And, I don’t see where I denigrated PUMA anywhere. My problem is with you.

          • Maybe you should read again what I wrote.

            1) I wrote twice now: “No one person has the right to place any specific ideology on PUMA.”

            2) I also wrote, “Why should the PUMA grassroots be beholden to the centralized decision of a dozen people anyway?”

            3) I also wrote in regards to my personal party affiliation: “Does that give me the right to claim only Democrats — not independents, not Republicans — can be PUMAs?”

            4) And before that, I wrote “I did not (still don’t) want one person’s biases shaping the PUMA discourse to the exclusion of other perspective.” (sic)

            This would, to most people, imply that I believe no single person or group of persons has a lock determining PUMAism. To you it somehow implied that I think I’m the “sole arbiter” of PUMAness.

            I’m not sure why as what I am doing is the exact opposite, trying to keep any one person or group from pigeonholding PUMA based on their own ideology and partisan feelings.

            You are right when you say I can’t have it both ways, “PUMA is either a group of disaffected Democrats, or it is not.” I don’t want to have it both ways: PUMA is NOT a group of disaffected Democrats. I said that from the beginning PUMA was anti-partisan and included “lefties, centrists, conservatives, Democrats, independents, AND Republicans.”

            So I’m not quite sure why you are so upset, but it should not detract from the more important point repeating that PUMA was sprung from anti-partisanship, unbeholden to party or ideology.

        • Also, fyi, I have written before that there’s room for many different points of view within the PUMA movement, and rejected calls to codify the movement before. That being said, I have a serious problem with trying to turn everybody rightward, which is what I see is in danger of happening, and what I will continue to rail against.

          • I just haven’t seen that many examples of this vast right-wing PUMA conspiracy. I don’t see masses of PUMAs changing their views on important issues. I’ve heard this in the zeitgeist, but when I talk to people or read PUMA websites, it all seems overblown.

            PUMAs who were criticizing Obama from the left last year for his refusal to support universal health care are still doing so it seems to me. PUMAs who were criticizing Obama from the right last year because they thought he was weak on national security are still doing so.

            I just don’t see evidence of anybody “trying to turn everybody rightward.” Or leftward for that matter.

          • Then, I guess that settles it. Jamaal doesn’t see it, so anti-feminists aren’t pushing their pro-life crap on PUMAs under the guise of shared feminism. Nobody’s coming on to PUMA blogs wailing about big government and stuff like that. The TEA Party/townhall movement hasn’t taken the slightest toehold anywhere in the PUMAsphere. There’s no pushback when you point out that the tactics of the FreedomWorkers are exactly the same as Axelrove’s Army. Nope, just my imagination, folks. No anti-socialist birthers, here.

          • People have always pushed their views onto others. That’s not new or extraordinary. They’ve done that since the beginning of PUMA and before.

            I still don’t see evidence of lefties going “You know what? These right-wing people are right. I’m now pro-life.” I just don’t see this vast right-wing (or left-wing) terror taking over PUMA.

            And you’re only kidding yourself if you think there weren’t always anti-socialist, small-government Reagancrats among Hillary voters. As for the birthers, I was hearing that stuff on Hillary sites well before PUMA got rolling. You can’t push onto someone things they already believed.

          • Why give credence to fringe elements by embracing them? That only opens the door for the other side to exploit them. Saying that there’ve always been loonies so that’s what the movement is about only diminishes any credibility you hope to have.

          • The truth is a bitter pill. Anyone whose read my work knows I don’t gloss it over. The truth is that calls to produce Obama’s birth certificate were started by Hillary supporters.

            Now what others do with that truth is not my fault.

            I don’t need to fight for the credibility of the PUMA movement, because I know what it accomplished, officially and unofficially.

            Loonies are always around, it doesn’t bother me, nor will it stop me from fighting for policies which I believe progress the country.

        • If the genesis of PUMA was directly related to observing what Hillary Clinton went through in 2008, then maybe it makes sense to say PUMA, for now, directly relates to how Hillary Clinton was mistreated by her own party, and then in the FUTURE, it can relate to ALL PARTIES.

          I would suggest that out of respect to HIllary Clinton, relating PUMA to what she went through is not a bad starting point, and later on, after she retires from politics, whenever that may be, expanding the scope of the meaning.

    • So republicans who join PUMA, can basically remain as they were before joining PUMA? Sounds like a Trojan horse to me.

      I would suggest you go back to that point in time when you coined the term and try and remember the trigger point. Was it possibly not some idiotic MSNBC anchor hating on Hillary and demanding she get in line?

      Republicans didn’t go through this disgusting process in 08, democrats for Hillary Clinton, DID. I am assuming you were for Hiillary Clinton last year. Isn’t it entirely possible that if you had been for ANY OTHER CANDIDATE, you may not have coined the term, PUMA? If the above is all accurate,
      then PUMA IS linked to Hillary Clinton. I would be surprised to see the PUMA name extended to groups that actually automatically hate Hillary Clinton and look for any excuse they can find to hammer her in their blogs and newsarticles.

      By the way, there is an additional claim on the name PUMA genesis from I think it was RiverDaughter??? I believe you both believe you came up with it first.

      • Of course is linked to Hillary — who said it wasn’t? I’m not aware of any PUMA organizations that regularly slam Hillary by default. Are you suggesting that all Republicans hate and have always hated Hillary? I’m not sure what you’re suggesting.

        Yes, there is debate over where the term puma came from, and I stay out of it as it is unimportant anyway.

      • The above two comments should be switched around, the second one came first, then the first one came second.

  10. Cinie – I have a similar consciousness of the Democratic party and process as you describe in your essay on Fairness: “… the abandonment of the concept of fairness as a core principle of the Democratic party [is] the single strongest motivation for the birth of the PUMA movement” . For me, the essence of PUMA is unwavering insistence on democratic principles and insistence on fairness. These two yardsticks are what I use to evaluate PUMA credentials.

    Crossing the aisle? Look at the aisle-crossing in our own 2008 democratic primaries. Some of Hillary’s primary votes came from genuine feminists, regardless of party. Some Hillary voters were democrat-racists who could not abide the thought of Obama in the White House. Some votes came from republican-faux-dems to fulfill the “anyone but Hillary” mandate. In today’s PUMA landscape, some people are sincere and yet who have “gone over” to the Republican camp … adios & best wishes. Obie’s aisle-crossing is the only thing about him that’s consistent. He’s nether left nor right, imo. He’s singlemindedly devoted to opportunity & personal ambition, and he & the oligarchy have created a marriage of convenience. For the rest of us, party affiliation currently means nothing. What means something is fairness, or lack of it.

    Infiltrators? Of course there are, and plenty of ‘em. Easy to spot, too, even if some find the proposition laughable. PUMAs who aren’t? Yes, I think that’s apparent.

    The only explanation for aisle-crossers & infiltrators that makes sense to me is that so many of us are women & disenfranchised Democrats, and we are an extremely valuable market.

    • LPB, I guess it’s more about what the politicians and parties stand for than the motivations of the voters. After all, they’re supposed to lead, not just follow polls, which can be manipulated anyway. But, where’s the leadership? Where’s the politician with the courage to advocate and promote things that benefit the average American just because it’s the right thing to do? Unfortunately, big money interests don’t invest in integrity, so noble, compassionate, committed voices are drowned out by bought and paid for shills. I’d rather not help those kinds of people if I can avoid it. Believe it or not, I really felt, and still feel, that Hillary is the kind of liberal dedicated leader I’m talking about.

      • Hillary is exactly the kind of leader I want also. Liberal, and a true leader.

        I think the 2010 election is one where PUMA consciousness will be the deciding factor. So, the motivation of the voters is critical. Voting straight ticket D or R is what got us into this mess.

        The “leaders” need not mend their ways until we voters mend our ways. When the hope-filled progressives come to their senses, they will have to make the same choices PUMAs did last year. Some of those will become PUMAs.

        • I guess where I have a problem is when we get to the point where a desire to hold the Democratic party accountable meets being amenable to Republican talking points and ideology. If that’s where people want PUMA to go, I’m telling you now, I ain’t going with them.

          • Agree – none of my money, not my vote, never loaning my body to fill a crowd for some conservative astroturf event, no kumbaya for the Republican agenda. It also means no energy for conservative talking points wrapped in PUMA paper.

  11. As a democrat for over 50 years and attending Tea Parties with lots of other democrats doesn’t mean that I am a republican. I just don’t like what the democrats are standing for right now.

    • Nobody said attending TEA Parties means you’re a Republican. It does mean that you’re buying into and assisting Republicans in their AstroTurfing efforts. I’ve said that, and I stand by it. TEA Paries/Recess Rallies/townhall protests are organized by well-funded right wing entities. That’s not even debatable anymore, since they no longer even try to hide it.

      • This is why I say take on Chase Bank. Any republican willing to protest the myriad of Chase Bank actions in the past year that have harmed millions of americans is probably a centrist, and that’s ok with me.

        It’s like the Star Trek episode with the Tribbles. If you put a Tribble near a Vulcan, the tribble begins yelping its displeasure.

        I propose protests in front of chase bank for ALL TEA PARTY PROTESTORS. If the protestor suddenly starts yelping the closer they get to the bank, we know we have a true republican disguised as a tea party protestor.

        I’m serious. Dyed in the wool republicans NEVER MET A BANK THEY DID NOT LIKE, no matter how heinous their banking policiies and procedures are.

        http://www.daily-protest.com
        http://www.bloggersagainstchase.com
        http://www.robotsagainstchase.com

  12. What is everyone referring to when they talk about repubs posing as pumas? i know of p.u.m.a. site, that’s republican, but what else? i know some of the daily puma listings are repubs, but they state they are pubs.

    • First off, why are any PUMA sites Republican? Secondly, the very nature of AstroTurfing is sockpuppetry, where people pretend to be something they’re not, sometimes one person using multiple aliases agreeing with themselves to make it seem like there’s support for their position. A lot of Democratic PUMA sites were infested with Republicans claiming to be Democrats and/or Republicans pretending to be sympathetic while they push their talking points. Some of these sites sound like GOP headquarters now, and still others have been completely taken over.

      Basically, they’re the exact same, snarky, abusive, thuggish tactics Obots used to get him elected, infesting Democratic or left leaning boards, big and small, with Obamania. Everybody from the DNC to ABC to pro-Hillary sites got hit, some fought back, some got overtaken.

      Some of us don’t want that to happen to PUMA.

  13. Interesting points, guys. But, for me, I’m not conceding PUMA or the Democratic party to anybody, even though I changed my registration to Independent. I’m not a Republican, I’m just really, really pissed at the Democrats, and they shouldn’t count on me for money or automatic support. I don’t understand the mindset of those who get to this position and then decide that hey, maybe the answer is on the other side that I’ve never found any common ground with before. For me, that’s like breaking up with a lover and deciding to become gay, or, in my case, straight. What sense would that make?

    Knowing that “liberal Republican” is not the oxymoron it appears to be at first blush doesn’t make me want to become one, it just means that there might be a couple of reasonable people on the other side of the aisle. The operative phrase is, “other side of the aisle,” though.

    And, the Obacrats might want to redefine what it means to be a Democrat like the conservatives have redefined Republican, but nobody can define me, and what I believe, but me. To tell you the truth, I wish there was a Common Freaking Sense party, where nobody came to the table with expectations and demands beyond, “let’s do stuff that makes common freaking sense.”

  14. Well, call me a Puma Unity My Ass bitter knitter. Too many “Amens” came from way too many “liberals” behind way too hateful comments on way too many boards. The people making the hateful comments are one thing, “infiltrators”, “Liberal Republicans”, “conservative Dems”, or just some “progressive” having a really bad day, but the “Amens” are a completely different matter.

    Educating ourselves on “Liberal Republicans” does not excuse all those “Amens” that followed a lot of hateful comments. I respect you for pointing out other ways to look at things, Cinie, but I have no respect for the “Amen” crowd because they do not look at their own part.

    Those that did not confront the “Amens” are as responsible for, what I see as a loss of credibility of some now desperately trying to reclaim “democrats in exile”, as not confronting the “infiltration” of astroturfers. It seems way to easy by some to call others “traitors to the Puma cause” or “not Pumas in the first place” than looking at their own “Amens”.

  15. Excellent points. I’ll call you Cinie, and come read you often!

  16. “”Are the infiltrators “liberal Republicans” seeking camaraderie and common ground, or, are they the snake in the grass weasels trying to lure the newly, though thoroughly, disillusioned former Democrats to the dark side that I think most of them are?”"

    This is the question of the hour.

    I think it’s a little of both….

    BUT, I *refuse* to abandon my fellow PUMAs because there are/ may be some “snakes in the grass” trying to lure them to the dark side. Frankly, I think anyone who would abandon our movement at this time wasn’t up for the PUMA task to begin with. This is just the time when we must fight like hell to keep our sisters (and brothers) on board.

    Yes, some of my PUMA friends are “going over to the dark side” as you imply, Cinie. I have seen the “conservative” talking points as well. BUT…. REMEMBER…. any wayward PUMA, who resorts to those talking points is still a Progressive Patriot at heart … and still has the potential to come back, if a REAL Progressive party emerges out of the 2008 DNC ashes.

    Right now, many PUMAs feel they have nowhere to go. Perhaps we are experiencing what Progressive Republicans have felt for quite some time?? That being the case, are we WRONG to try and forge some alliances with “the dark side?” I mean really….

    I have joined the Log Cabin Republicans. They are as close to us PUMAs as you can find over there. And they are a study in *sticking with it.* PUMAs could take a lesson or two from them, on how to sustain a Progressive movement through a party crisis.

    SYD

    • Seeing as I quit Puma, I take some of your comment personally insulting.

      I was always up for the authentic purpose of the PUMA movement. I personally feel Puma has become useless for anything that I care to support or promote.

      Your joining the Log Cabin Republicans just seems to prove my point about Puma having become a Republican movement.

      I wish you well in your choice to become a Republican. I personally would never even consider such a move. I will support LGBT through liberal avenues TYVM.

      • I am not a Republican. I am an independent.

        I joined the Log Cabiners to see what they are doing…. and, I dare say…. it has been refreshing.

        SYD

  17. Most excellent post Cinie. Yes indeed, in the olden days there were “liberal” Republicans. As you found out, they were referred to as Rockefeller Republicans. Another term was “country-club Republicans”. When you can google Henry Cabot Lodge and Everett Dirksen (you may know of Dirksen from IL). Both would have been considered too liberal for the Republican Party today. As you can see from the Dirksen entry on wiki, he worked on civil rights issues in the 60s.

    I think part of the change in the republican party came from the “dixiecrats” when they (southern segregationists) left the Dem Party and moved to the Republican Party. I’m referring to the dixiecrats of the 1948 election. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dixiecrats

    So I guess to sum up, I agree there are such critters as liberal Republicans, but I doubt many are in office on the national level. And I have read that during the periods when the Rockefeller Republicans were the majority of the party, things were a lot more polite in politics in general. Just my two cents there.

    • Hell, Fredster, there used to be liberal Democrats! With everybody moving to the center, and the wingnuts holding on to the Republican party for dear pro-life, liberals are getting squeezed out from both sides. And yeah I know Dirksen and how instrumental he was in negotiating the Civil Rights Act.

      http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,835480,00.html

      And liberal Paul Simon was a fiscal conservative.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Simon_%28politician%29

      • Cinie, I was doing some lookups and based those comments about Dirksen on this wiki entry. I **barely** remember the man being in the Senate.

        As Republican Senate leader he played a highly visible and key role in the politics of the 1960s, including helping to write and pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Open Housing Act of 1968, both landmarks of Civil Rights legislation.

      • I wasn’t disagreeing, Fredster, I just like highlighting contemporary articles for perspective whenever possible. I was 10 years old in 1964 so, I remember Dirksen, but not as well as I remember Annette Funicello or “I Spy,” know what I mean? Ask me who Thalia Menninger was, though…

    • Excellnt points, Fred.

      We would do well to remember that neither party has had the corner on “Progressiveism” through history. Just as neither party has owned conservative (small c) idiocy throughout time.

      Any thinking person must look for the true Progressives in BOTH/EITHER party… at any give point.

  18. Cinie 28 August 2009 at 7pm
    exactly!!!!

  19. CNAK, LTD, love you both madly and respect your opinions highly. I also agree completely that the PUMA movement was infiltrated by Republicans, everybody knows how I feel about that, and you both know I’ve spent hours researching an presenting pretty conclusive evidence of that.

    However, I think a couple of really key points are getting lost or overlooked in the larger debate. Namely, not all Democrats are liberals, not all liberals are Democrats. Also, there’s a difference between paid AstroTurfing interests, their volunteer minions, and average voters forced for maybe the first time in their lives to truly examine and declare their personal political position.
    Seems to me, the conservative, just barely left of center Obacrats hijacked the Democratic party by pretending to be any and all kind of Democrat they happened to encounter at a particular given moment. I actually think Obie is to the right of the Blue Dogs. His “reach across the aisle” bipartisan Republicans for Obama from the gate activities have always bothered me, and I see no evidence he’s going to ever back away from his ideological brothers just across the aisle. This is the guy who chose Joe Lieberman as a mentor, remember?

    Many of the Democrats who gravitated to Hillary might well have been Rockefeller Republicans in another life, or even today, if that faction if still had any clout, or place in their party at all. They don’t.

    When the conservative infiltrators disguised as more moderate, or liberal Republicans come a-callin’, which PUMAs are gonna be most susceptible? And, where do those centrist Democrat PUMAs who don’t like Obama or his brand of extreme centrism go?

    I think it’s fine to uphold your bedrock principles to the death, and I would love to light a fire under the liberal Democrats and get them to mobilize and fight for the little guys. But, the centrists and extreme right get all the money and are better positioned to play the squeaky wheel. Still, I personally will champion causes and people I believe in, and continue to point out the ratfuckers and AstroTurfers wherever they try to bullshit people into thinking they’re more relevant than they are. And, I still hold that PUMA was born on the left of the left, even though I can see now that many of the Hillary supporters drawn to the movement from the very first second of its life, were from various other points on the Democratic political spectrum.

    • “love you madly and respect your opinions highly” Right back atcha, twice as hard.

      I agree that many of the Hillary supporters who were drawn to the movement were from various points on the Democratic political spectrum. I just think many Dems who were more centerist are the ones who voted for Obama in the general due to either, better the devils I know or they simply voted party line.When push came to shove at GE time, plain and simple they just went home.

      Did I tell you I’m buying a blue bowl tomorrow? LOL

  20. Republican politicians never met a banker they did not like, and until that changes, I don’t trust the tea party protestors because they have forsaken their brothers and sisters that are being screwed over RIGHT NOW AS WE SPEAK BY THE BANKS to go after government only, without realizing that the banks suffocating of local economies is making the government more responsive to, THE BANKS!

    One of my new credo’s is, if you do NEW business with Chase Bank, you are dead to me.

  21. Here is my take on this subject.

    I agree “PUMAs can be any one of a number of things, united in their “catness,” wherever you find them, whatever you call them”

    It is true, that is the way it is now.

    Authentic Pumas were overwhelmingly pissed off democrats who stood with our democratic choice for president when she was denied a fair primary season. We were pissed at the DNC, the delegates, the Obama media, etc.

    Yeah, a very small fraction of republicans supported (some even voting for) Hillary. More republicans meddled into our primaries and caucuses at the urging of RW talk radio. The greater majority of these republicans did not change parties. They remained republicans. Many also joined PUMA but remained republicans also.

    The authentic Puma movement was a democratic movement. It was for ‘democrats in exile’. Never was meant to be a ‘lets get together with republicans’ movement. We were hoping to find a way to take our party back to its original roots, stop all the corruption that took place, etc.

    Our democratic movement in its birth was infiltrated/astroturfed before we had a chance to organize ourselves and try to figure out what we should do to achieve our goals. We were inundated on many blogs by RW talking points, TV shows, print articles and blogs.
    There was much clever salesmanship about how bad the republicans are BUT listen to what Hannity/Rush/Beck/Malkin/Worldnetdaily/etc. is saying now. Never allowed to say what Olbermann/Maddow/NY Times/DailyKos had to say. If you so much as tried to source any left leaning source you were chastised and reminded how horrible these sources were. So that left 99.9 percent of the Puma blogs with only RW points of view. If that’s not astroturfing I’ll eat my hat but won’t give them my head count.

    Sorry, as horrendous as the dems were they were my democrats and I didn’t take too kindly listening to any republican talk shit about my democrats. We democrats could say what we wanted it was our party, but what ever gave republicans the idea they could talk shit about democrats to democrats (even pissed off democrats)? They would of course try to placate it with the old adage that both parties are bad. Yeah, well get your ass back over and clean your own republican shit hole. Blog owners allowed this to happen, imho for clicks to their site. I won’t even go into the racism, anti LGBT crap that was spouted on some of those Puma blogs, left to sit in the comments without so much as a ‘hey that’s naughty’. Clicks and $$, clicks and $$. Sickening.

    Yep, although it was never intended to be “PUMAs can be any one of a number of things, united in their “catness,” it is exactly that way now. That is why I quit PUMA; it does not stand for any thing specific, never mind stand for many of the things that I support. I even wonder if it stands for much of anything Hillary supports anymore. Liberal republicans/conservative democrats can have Puma as far as I’m concerned and good luck with that strategy. Glad I quit. I consider myself a liberal just not the new type of Obama party liberal. Sorry for the long post.

  22. Well, I have never been good at reading labels, I guess that is why I choose very few to take and wear as my own. I will continue to wear my PUMA label, but when is comes to all these subcategories and such…I am fairly consistently Justme, and will remain that way..I think I will leave it to others to try to define, if they so choose..
    Great post Cinie!!

  23. I do not see Obama as a liberal, left, etc. He is part of the Oligarchy Machine. That machine grinds the middle, the working class, and the poor, into burger meat that gets fed to the pigs that run things. Yeah in the beginning, I thought he might be a muslim marxist. But we all know now he used them, the Jeremiah’s, the NoI, te Ayers’, the Axelrove’s, etc so he could get down on his knees for a taste of that Oligarchy meat. Can’t blame him, I think TC Timmy is purty too…

    Anyhoo…

    My sort of take on all of this, is there are Hillary-voter PUMA’s who come in every size, shape, stripe, fur color, claw length, range, smell, taste, demographic, voting history and yadayada. Some have decamped from the common cause, to be on one end or the other of the continuum. Some of those still come where the crowd is for company, while others gathered on either end or stood in the middle of the partay, to lob shit at the other end and the middle… and somehow covering themselves from head to toe in the process… And yet, Me, I could give a flying rats ass who is involved in the fusillade of feces, and if you are besmeared and besmirched just shower and call it a day, wake up tomorrow and be a Hillary Democrat or Hillary Former Democrat. Everyone has, I believe, a fundamental right to say whatever comes to mind, and I actually enjoy the flying shit show, but not for entertainment, but because I join any orgy of expressiveness with glee, so pointing it out does not mean I am dissing anyone in the least. I’m jes’ sayin’…

    Lova Ya, Love Ya Mind too, Cinie

  24. On a serious note. What are you apologizing for, Cinie? Are you apologizing to Puma for calling out the astroturfing??? That one would be a hard one for me to fatham. Are you apologizing for having been astroturfed by the astroturfing of Puma. Maybe I read to much into the title that I went back are read a couple of times: My PUMApology Of Sorts. I actually don’t get it in the context of the piece. “of sorts” “pumapology” “my”

    • I’m apologizing because at least some of the “infiltrators” could be of the “liberal Republican” stripe sincerely seeking collaboration. I never even considered that, just like I dismissed the notion that some of the sympathetic PUMAs could legitimately be much more conservative Democrats by nature. Thus, the “PUMApology of sorts.”

      • Thank you for explaining that. I think I accepted the “more conservative Democrats my nature” as portion of puma, understanding that Hillary did not get 18 million votes without them. And for the most part they accepted my left of the left that did not vote for Obama identity during the primary. Now I accepted that as progress (on my part as much as the theirs). Hillary Clinton helped make that happen for all of us.

        For me, calling out the “liberal Republican type”, I will not apologize for. One I hardly no what that means, two I doubt they hardly know what that means, and you just recently came to find an understanding of it yourself. Meaning: It was for the liberal republican types who were also disenfranchised from both parties to find their own identity by forming their own group rather than riding on Pumas coattails and puma letting them ride their coattails.

        To encourage them to find their identity within a group of disenfranchised democrats was enabling and manipulative and a subtle form of psychological astroturfing in my opinion. When one enables they stop their own progress for the sake of another. Go away liberal Republicans, find out what that means for yourself, check back in later and educate us on it and we will fulfill our original purpose of disenfranchised Dems and educate you as well.

        Other wise it is a waste of both groups time. A cart before the horse.

      • Please at least entertain the concept that… “Progressive” is not necessarily the property of the Left.

        Some of us are Progressive Patriots. We love our country, we love it’s founding principles… but we also want Progress. Progress in the areas of gay rights, for instance. Or alternative energy. … or any other number of issues.

        The problem, as I see it, with the Obama brand of “Progressivism” is that it is laced with a fair (large?) amount of hatred for all things American. To the point where our President is buddy-buddy with known America haters like Ayers and Wright, and the Obots hate all things Clinton.

        No matter how much I want “change” on any number of issues, the kind of hatred spewn by Obama’s “pals” is NOT OK with me. And the tactics they use to press their points are un-American. If that is what the Democratic party now views as acceptable… I can’t be part of it. For this, and a few other reasons … I am able to find common ground with SOME Republicans. Not all. Some.

        No “apology” is required, really.

        Just an open mind.

        Thanks, Cinie, for having one!

        • I do not hear anyone agreeing in this thread with or hardly even bringing up anymore “Obama brand of ‘Progressivism’” It was established long ago, in the primary, for many that identified as progressive Independents or Democrats or Greens that Obamacrats were not progressives, except progressing the Democratic party to the right. Which I hear that is where you are starting to feel comfortable with it being, SYD. Good for you, you took a position for what you need to do for yourself. And so are many others taking back their way left of center self from puma boards by leaving puma.

  25. I blame the media for the two weak duds in a row that have been elected to the Oval Office. I am in full support of a national primary day where there is media blackout on the results and the #1, #2 spots are chosen by each parties’ voters.

    • “Weak duds?” Is that like “Milk Duds?”

      And I like the idea of a full media blackout until the polls close. I’d even take it a step further and go for eliminating exit polls. How do they know if people are telling the truth, and how do we know that somebody’s not checking ballots on the sly and then saying they got the info from exit polls?

  26. I am going all the way with Commie for myself. I am going to call you one sexy-brained smart mama.

    You can see some of my snark take on some of the same issues at TW that I posted earlier today. As Always I link my work to you with fear and tripedation.

    http://thewiddershins.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/be-afraid-be-very-afraid/#comment-25601

    • I read your piece when I finished mine and was struck by the similarities in our themes, too. I didn’t have anything to add, you had it covered, so I didn’t comment, but, ya know I wudda dropped in if only to high five you sooner or later.

      “Fear and trepidation,” my eye, Woman.

  27. Actually Cinie, HRC is very liberal and so am I, but I am not the kind of ‘liberal’ that Baracko is…way too far left for me.

    I do want Universal Health Care of the Hillary kind. I am an environmentalist, support gay rights, women’s rights and all the other liberal agenda…I just don’t want the country in the red from now until the end of time. Want wars to end, but don’t want to have our country undefended if need be. I always thought of myself as a liberal until obie came along.

    • I don’t see Obama as being liberal, or “left” at all. Far as I’m concerned, he’s a corporatist DINO Republican-lite, lying sack o’…you get the idea. If he was liberal, we would have hope for meaningful health care reform, and single payer would have always been on the table, imo. Wasn’t he the one talking about the “left of the left” getting “wee-wee’d up”?

      • Maybe this is the heart of where PUMAs have trouble identifying themselves politically. Using Obama as the ‘head’ of the snake Democratic Party, many of us feel we have to move to one side or the other if we don’t like his agenda. If we declare he is not a Dem but a DINO, then I will declare myself a liberal again.
        Just sayin…

        • That want many login names exiled from Puma blogs have done. Reclaimed their own identity no matter who is at the helm of the sinking ship.

      • I’m a socialist, far enough left to be clearly identifiable as “left” by European/Latin American standards. In surveying my politiscape, I don’t see even a mirage of Obama reflected from somewhere over the horizon. Every vote he cast as a Senator (FISA, war funding, etc.) labels him as a corporatist. Every action he’s taken while occupying the Oval Office (failure to fight DADT & DOMA, ramping up the war, failure to push FOCA, the kickbaks to the banks and now to the insurance companies) labels him as a corporatist.

        He’s also the current head of the Democratic Party and has the support of the majority of power players in that party. Fact.

        What that means is that his and his backers’ principles–or his motivations, if you don’t want to call them principes–now are the Democratic principles. Liberal values are no longer “Democratic principles,” and IMO have to be distinguished from them to have any kind of credibility. So the “I was a real PUMA and you’re not” bullshit doesn’t get any traction with me.

        Here’s my manifesto: I’m no longer a “Democrat in Exile.” I’m a nomad, and I’ll raid this or that fat and happy establishment compound, be it Democratic or Republican, for whatever serves my principles.

    • Shadowfax is really getting to the heart of what I was trying to say.

      Clinton Progressivism is my cup of tea. Obama “Progressives” are not. It’s really that simple.

      I was once a Liberal, too. Until Obie. At that point I had to admit… one can take any idiology too far….

      SYD

  28. Good post Cinie, how about if I just call you a PUMA of the liberal breed? I call myself a PUMA of the Hillary centralist breed.
    We all got hosed when the delegates and DNC destroyed our party and started one of corruption themselves.

    I wait for the day that Hillary will become our President, and clean house. I hope this is what happens, or I will be out in the political cold.

    • Fair enuff, Shadowfax. I think HRC is a lot more liberal than she lets on, but, I’ll concede the point for the sake of harmony.

      • And Hillary actually CARES about people. She has real empathy for everyone, especially women and children. Now that is really liberal. Obama cares about Obama.

        I know a lot of people now who claim to be socially liberal and fiscally conservative. Where do they fit in?

        I’m Canadian. Your whole healthcare debate seems crazy to me. What’s not to like with our system? I have never had a complaint. Everyone is equal, everyone gets excellent care for no money output(except in taxes). One would think that the Republicans would figure out that public health care would only help companies and the free market system. Why do they think that all those companies came north of the border? And all those people who are paying huge sums to insurance companies – wouldn’t they rather pay $5000 more in taxes than $12,000 to an insurance company that is built to screw you? It just doesn’t make any sense.