A pretty strong case could be made that everything political that we read or see via the mainstream media, including the corporatized segment of the blogosphere, is AstroTurf. Though the original term refers to the unethical public relations practice of creating the appearance of grassroots activity on behalf of corporations and politicians where none exists, given that it is ultimately a marketing tool designed to create buzz in order to persuade the gullible against their interests and in favor of the corporate/political entity that paid for it, I’m pretty confident in saying we’re currently being AstroTurfed to death. By everybody.
Most of us are aware of the Obacracy’s use of the Axelrovian AstroTurf Army 
throughout the corporate media and blogosphere, from the leg-tingling sycophancy of MSNBO and it’s little sister former Big Three networks, to the shameless fluffing of the dying dinosaurs of the American press, to the ridiculous cheerleading of the Rah Rah Rally Boyz and Bots of the BoBama Blogosphere. The influence of General Electric through it’s ownership of NBC and its relationship with MSNBC, Newsweek, The Washington Post, New York Times, Slate Magazine, The Root, and others is pretty well known. What hasn’t been fully sussed out yet is the relationship between General Electric, Exelon, (the big AstroTurfed Obama supporting Illinois energy company and owner of Commonwealth Edison run by William Ayers’ dad, Thomas before his death) and the Obama administration. This site, USCAP, (United States Climate Action Program) shows there most likely is one, though, without further inquiry, it’s difficult to know exactly how strong or tenuous it is. It is also common knowledge that Obama supports cap and trade regulations and has for some time. Green Biz tells us that GE has been promoting it for a long time, too.
So, who’s against it? Well, two years ago, FreedomWorks, the rightwing AstroTurf machine run by Dick Armey that has been foisting the “grassroots” Tea Party hoohaw on us here lately, (which I chronicled in my Dueling AstroTurf post, and again here) picketed GE’s shareholders meeting, protesting the company’s cap and trade stance. At this year’s meeting, just a few days ago, a sabotage agent for FOX News’ Bill O’Reilly show, Jesse Waters, crashed it, loading O’Reilly’s “GE sucks with cap and trade” gun. FreedomWorks is on FOX News a lot. They’re on You Tube and MSN video channels a lot, too. But, they really like FOX, and FOX likes them right back.
Wonder why?
FreedomWorks claims on its About page to have been founded in 1984, and that’s about it. Wikipedia tells us that in 1984, the company was known as Citizens for a Sound Economy. Links found for CSE now connect directly to FreedomWorks.
Founded in 1984 as Citizens for a Sound Economy, the organization was renamed FreedomWorks on July 22, 2004, and is chaired by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey. Publisher Steve Forbes serves as Vice Chairman of the FreedomWorks Foundation.
President and CEO Matt Kibbe, a former aide to Republican Representative Dan Miller and a former staffer at the Republican National Committee, said that the new group “will encourage Republicans — and Democrats — to take positions on issues of individual freedom.” Armey said that “Ronald Reagan launched a political and intellectual revolution, and the Contract with America expanded it. Today, it’s time for the next wave. We have a rare window to make the big ideas of individual ownership and economic opportunity a political reality for all Americans. That’s the purpose of FreedomWorks.”
FreedomWorks is one of the oldest free market grassroots advocacy organizations in operation today.[citation needed] Congressman Ron Paul was the first Chairman of CSE.
In 2003, Citizens for a Sound Economy Foundation split and was reorganized as Americans for Prosperity.
In 2004, CSE acquired Empower America in a merger. Empower America was founded in 1993 by William Bennett, former Secretary of HUD Jack Kemp, former Ambassador Jeane J. Kirkpatrick, and former Representative Vin Weber.[4]
In 2009, FreedomWorks was one of several groups active in the “Tea Party” tax protests.[5]
Source Watch also says that CSE was founded by Koch Industries, then split with its foundation, which went on to become Americans For Prosperity, with CSE going on to merge with Empower America to form FreedomWatch:
CSE is often described as a “consumer group,” but according to internal documents leaked to the Washington Post, 85 percent of its 1998 funding came from major corporations. “The ‘citizens’ in question [are] companies like Amoco, Bell Atlantic, Citibank, General Electric and General Motors“, Washington Babylon explains (p. 15). “During recent years, the CSE, headed by C. Boyden Gray, who acted as counsel to the president under George W. Bush, has opposed health care reform and a rise in the minimum wage, while championing corporate tax cuts, deregulation and a balanced budget.”
More info on Empower America and CSE, their funding and associations for both, can be found at the links.
So, who’s Koch Industries?
Koch Industries, Inc. (pronounced coke) is a private corporation based in Wichita, Kansas with subsidiaries involved in manufacturing, trading and investments. Koch companies are involved in core industries such as commodities trading, petroleum, chemicals, energy, fiber, intermediates and polymers, minerals, fertilizers, pulp and paper, chemical technology equipment, ranching, securities and finance, as well as in other ventures and investments. In 2008 it was the second largest privately held company in the United States (after Cargill) with an annual revenue of about $98 billion.[1][2]
Fred C. Koch, for whom Koch Industries, Inc. is named, co-founded the company in 1940 and invented an innovative crude oil refining process. His sons, Charles G. Koch, chairman of the board and chief executive officer, and David H. Koch, executive vice president, are principal owners of the company. Charles Koch owns 42% of Koch Industries, and has stated that the company will publicly offer shares “literally over my dead body”.[1]
Now run by brothers Charles and David, after the passing of the patriarch and founder, Fred, the company’s history, including family feuds, can be found here. One of the most interesting aspects of the company’s profile is how quietly entrenched in Republican politics they are. Being a privately held corporation, they can fund myriad right wing and Libertarian think tanks and politicians without undue (for them) scrutiny. Think George Soros on the downlow. The Center for Public Integrity reports on the company’s machinations involving the Bush II administration to extricate itself from the troubles brought upon it in the waning days of Bill Clinton’s reign:
In late 2000—as the Clinton Administration was preparing to leave office—Koch was hit with a 97-count indictment for covering up the discharge of more than 15 times the legal limit of benzene, a carcinogen, from a refinery in Corpus Christi, Texas.
The company faced penalties of more than $350 million. Four Koch employees were also charged individually and faced up to 35 years in prison.
Three months after the Bush administration took office—and just before the lawsuit went to trial—the Justice Department abruptly settled the case. Koch agreed to pay $20 million and plead guilty to a single count of concealment of information. In return, the Justice Department dropped all criminal charges against Koch and the four employees.
Through their various foundations, including the Cato Institute, (which amazingly calls itself “liberal” as in the classical sense of the word, which is, I guess, short for “Liberaltarian”, or something) the Koch brothers, one of whom, David, was a vice-presidential candidate on the 1980 Libertarian ticket, exert tremendous influence on the Republican party. Their associations can be further searched here, leading to further information, such as this link illustrating the Center for a Sound Economy’s “friends,” like Microsoft, Ralph Nader, Joe Lieberman, and the Sarah Scaife Foundation. Media Transparency and Economic Expert also show funding for CSE from the Scaife and Koch family foundations as well GE, Enron and Daimler Chrysler. FYI that’s Scaife, as in Richard Mellon Scaife, right wing mega-funder, self-appointed Bill Clinton killer and Hillary Clinton supporter, who these guys say is stupid as a box of rocks and evil as 5 inch stillettos.
Though one might be tempted to assume that the right wing AstroTurfers vs. left wing AstroTurfers is a pure “oil vs nuclear energy” battle after perusing the various links above, there’s more to it than that. Think Progress, that ObaLoving blog of the Soros funded Center for American Progress points out, correctly, that FreedomWorks has also declared war on “socialized medicine.” So, as FoxNews fills the airwaves with stories of the Obacrats’ plans for a budget reconciliation cram healthcare down the Republicans’ throats move, which has been in the works for weeks, watch for these FreedomWorks talking points counters. In fact, you can download a .pdf “talking point kit” of your very own.
Just for giggles, why not? Considering the connections, motives and tactics of the players, people are just manufacturing support for their jockeying for position chess moves. While you’re being manipulated to point fingers and pick sides, what you’re really doing is playing into, or out of, the hands of somebody’s corporate agenda. For the right wing, that means build their numbers, for the left, it means love Obama. The only thing really worth considering then, is, when it’s all said and done, whose side can you live with having been on? Soros or Koch? Neither? If you are indeed on one side of the political spectrum or another, the first thing you must do is take your party back. Otherwise, it’s all just advertiser-sponsored theater.
And, the joke’s on you.
*NOTE: Neil Rogers has an interesting chronology here.
I think money circulates back and forth through these groups. Any new energy or movement has to choose a side or get ignored. Look at Oprah Winfrey, of all the people in the world, wouldn’t she be the one person who could have a pow wow with the credit card companies and come up with intelligent solutions?
Her investment team would probably reveal some embarrassing secret if she did try, yet I don’t think it is within her scope to out the badness and wrongess of the credit card industry.
http://www.Daily-Protest.com
you want to know the real mind fuck? All the news outlets, the ones we perceive as being liberal or conservative, etc, they are all controlled by the same group of people. News magazines, TV, radio, cable…fact is the only thing you can rely on to be true is what you see live in front of your eyes, and even then…
Meet the Pilgrim Society. And you’ll love this…their WASPS.
Check out the corporations tied to them and you’ll see that the left perception and right perception are all controlled by the same remote. Axelrove and Pampers want a seat at the table, as do a lot of others. I think the joke’s going to be on them.
http://logisticsmonster.com/the-pilgrim-society/
Yeah, I found crossover AstroTurf input from companies like Microsoft and GE, too.
If the TEA parties were manifestations of FOX, were all the anti-war protests manifestations of NBC, CBS, ABC? How do you distinguish between simply covering the news & manufacturing the news?
Far as I can tell, Fox and conservative talk radio are right wing tools, just as the Big 3 and MSNBO/CNN are tools of Axelrove. The party operatives hire and fund pr firms and think tanks that manufacture and manipulate the messages as well as the messenger services. It’s probably been going on forever, but since Eisenhower took to television with “I Like Ike” commercials, the “Making of the President” has become progressively more about marketing than substance. Now, it’s just a popularity contest with consequences.
And the other writers with even more highly developed BS detectors of the PUMAsphere. You can find a lot of ‘em on my blogroll and more at Daily PUMA.
As far as distinguishing between the real and fake news, you can’t. The only thing you can do is read between the lines and try to pick out the nuggets of truth. Those are usually the ones that make sense, no matter who says them. Or, you could read me!
http://dailypuma.blogspot.com/
JMHO,btw
Funny, but I get the feeling you already know this stuff and disagree, right?
I have to agree with Cinie, the Tea Party was a manifestation of Fox Television news. I wrote a piece about it before the Tea Party Protests happened. That anger could have been directed towards the credit card companies versus what what may or may not happen later from the bailout bill. http://dailypuma.blogspot.com/2009/04/im-still-waiting-rush-limbaugh-new.html
The best stimulus plan of all would have been the credit card interest amnesty on the interest for all debt that is over 2 to 3 years old. This instantly would have invigorated tens of millions of americans, inspired them to pay down their credit card debts while also freeing up money for small purchases, or to even begin living off of debit cards instead of credit cards.
And, no government money would have been involved. The banks have FDIC regulators breathing down their necks demanding they have enough cash on hand. Well, how about getting back credit card debt from the past 10 years by simply waiving the draconian interest charges that have caused that debt to become insurmountable for too many people.
The solution is right there in front of everybody’s eyes, but it takes an outsider like myself to say it.
http://www.daily-protest.com
Cinie, I assume you’ve heard the latest in the “cap and trade will drive us into the arms of excelon show.” Companies in areas dependent on coal for jobs etc will be able to sell, exchange, nail in a crate and drop in the ocean, their carbon shares. I wonder who the big beneficiaries of this round of three card monte will be? I think it’s safe to assume it won’t be us.
Here’s the thing about astroturf campaigns battling for supremacy. If, as I contend, the tea party movement started with legitimate grass roots operatives and got co-opted by Dick Armey and his dingdongs (whether I’m right or not doesn’t really matter, but I have enough first hand testimony to convince me that I am), and we have the well established Pampers poop deck swabbery from the other side, with a pissed off populace in the middle, there is serious potential for political fallout in the form of a new party.
As I have been saying since the convention in August, if PUMA is smart the organization will position itself to be the fulcrum that improves the tipping point. The question is, will PUMA get its act together in time? The lines are being drawn for 2010, and barring a Democratic Party coup by the DLC, I forsee a Republican Congress, and in 2012 a Republican President who makes Mitt Romney look like George Washington. Of course ACORN will probably have registered every illegal alien in this country to vote for Jimminy Dumbass by then and we’ll all be screwed. Then there’s the whole Mayan calendar thing, which I’d like to get some confirmation on because if the world’s gonna end I’d like to spend the next three years getting loaded and having a real good time instead of working.
Shtuey, while we can agree to disagree about the genesis of the Tea Party movement, because I’m just as convinced they’re NOT co-opted grassroots, but merely cleverly positioned to exploit the general displeasure of those not on the KoolAid as you are otherwise, the problem, as I see it, is that a third party’s only shot in hell is as a spoiler. Even then, without the kind of major party support “enjoyed” via the backdoor by Nader, such a party is merely destined to be a minor distraction, no matter how noisy. Legitimate funding is unlikely to materialize in sufficient amounts to make much of a difference, imo. The best use of PUMA power, as I see it, is as a sort of whistle-blowing info source capable of influencing people to vote responsibly. Or, as in the case of today’s call to support single payer, mobilize regular people online. Even without money and centralized organization, I see the entity we have in place as being fully capable of the latter.
Call bullshit on the bullshitters, advocate responsible candidates and policies, advocate against practices detrimental to the populace. Not earth-shattering, but, nothing to sneeze at, either. With the added benefit of being much less corruptible.
The best way to combat AstroTurfing is not let it be planted indiscriminately.
[...] please read this comment that Alessandro Machi of Daily PUMA left on my Dueling AstroTurf II thread about the egregious behavior of the credit card industry and how it impacts all of us. [...]
Perot and Nader…another name to add in the third party run from nowhere meant to upset the out come is, John Anderson.
People forget he ran for President in 1980…It wasn’t just Reagan and Carter….and Anderson took a shit load of votes from Carter. Anderson was a ten term GOP who started something called, ” The National Unity Party.” I remember people at tables at malls , signing folks up….much like Perot later , in that the regular people invovled, believed. However, once Reagan was in , “The National Unity Party” went away…mission accomplished.
I vaguely remember that, Paper Doll, but then, I vaguely remember the period between 1971 and 1996.
Oh, and about Nader, from what I can gather, these guys gave him money and used him like Perot, to divert just enough votes for them to win.
No doubt about it. If Hillary had somehow beaten the massive cheating and gotten the nomination, Nader would have be financed to run….IMO, The fact Ralph stood down is another sign Barry is A Dem in name only.
[...] please read this comment that Alessandro Machi of Daily PUMA left on my Dueling AstroTurf II thread about the egregious behavior of the credit card industry and how it impacts all of us. [...]
The credit card thing. Bravo to those who avoided it in the first place. However, there are legitimate reasons people go into debt. Business investments and medical emergencies are two common reasons, paying for children’s education is another one, so is losing a job and using the cards to get by.
The low monthly minimum payment can cause people to overborrow. Let us not forget that the combination of a routinely volatile stock market and 1% interest on savings investments made the idea of trying to save money less appealing as well.
People began borrowing as a form of an investment in a business dream they may have had.
Having debt actually helped stimulate the economy, up to a point. Now is the time for bankers to help those who desire to pay down their debts by offering favorable interest rates. Instead the banks are doing the opposite.
Many financial and insurance institutions bought 20 and 30 year 18% CD”s back in the early 80’s.
These CD’s have been ending over the past decade, these people want these super high rates again, so they are trying to drain as much money out of the hands of the working class before interest rates start rising.
Even if you have no debt, you still may owe your job to people using their credit cards to buy a product or service your company offers. We really are all in this together. If you don’t think you or your business are affected, then ask yourself this, how come almost no businesses accept debit cards only?
Glad to hear that you guys check out Daily-PUMA. I’m super glad that it is saving you time, that was a big reason I wanted to do it. Save time and allow everybody to keep in touch as well. The third goal was to atract new people to PUMA as well.
Cinie – I read somewhere that the Obama Girl was dreamed up by Google people. It was an idea that was pitched to somebody else before it was pitched to the Obama people. No way was that grass roots. It’s a google agenda thingee.
I believe that Swell, but the story for publication was that it was the brainchild of a guy named Ben Relles of Barely Political.
http://cinie.wordpress.com/2009/02/16/selling-obamalove/
Let us not forget something very big here. The future debt from the bailout is being resolved AS WE SPEAK. It is being “resolved” on the back of the most loyal and trustworthy americans out there, the ones who pay their bills on time every month. It is going on as we speak. Or Rome Burns while the media fiddles.
http://www.Daily-Protest.com
Yep, it’s a problem, all right. But since I gave up credit dependency a long time ago and don’t have any credit card debt, I don’t pay as much attention to that specific aspect of the economy. Just seems to me that the whole culture of credit as industry needs scrutiny and overhaul.
Thanks, CNAK!
Cinie, Once again thanks! Great post and great research!
Hey Alessandro, I go to your place every day to see what the bloggers are up to. Saves me plenty of time. Thanks.
Is there a part one? If so, please link between your two articles so people can read more of your addicting research.
I did link to Dueling AstroTurf, and About That Good Deeds and Punishment Thing in the body of this post, but, here they are again.
http://cinie.wordpress.com/2009/04/16/dueling-astroturf/
http://cinie.wordpress.com/2009/04/20/about-that-good-deeds-and-punishment-thing/
If anybody wants to take a look at the blog archive for DailyPUMA, you will see a warning of the Tea Parties agenda, railing against Newt, and Rush, and complaining about Barack Obama’s meeting at the white house without any true team of outside of white house rivals. (I am concerned about Ralph Nader’s involvement in your list above as I thought he was an outsider).
The reason I know I am legit is NOBODY in any of the higher circles has ever approached me about anything to do with politics or my ideas, specifically because I am not for either side, and I don’t generate much income. Being for the side of common sense and fairness will get you nowhere with the more “successful” of society because they have already compromised their morals, how dare you try and show them up by being something more idealistic.
What Cinie says was told to me a few years ago (but without all the reference research) by a very smart individual.) He would tell me, Alessandro, it’s all about Coke vs Pepsi, it’s all about getting the masses to look here, and then look there (think Pirates, Craigslist, Obama’s puppy, while Chase Bank and friends are financially mauling 400,000 of their best & most trustworthy customers with change in terms that they cannot opt out of).
Cinie, how long did it take for you to write this one piece.
http://www.DailyPUMA.com & http://www.Daily-Protest.com
Alessandro, it took me most of the day, and the only reason it didn’t take longer is that I decided to limit it to an overview with links, instead of a more in-depth commentary. There’ll be time for that later. Here’s the thing for me, too many things are being deliberately conflated as equal to, or as a result of, other things, when they’re not. Americans are unhappy with a lot of the current administration’s economic policies. Americans were unhappy with a lot of the last administration’s economic policies. Being upset about bailout has nothing to do with being upset about taxes. Just because you don’t like the stimulus bill, or the bailouts, etc. does not mean you believe in the “small government” Republican model. When someone, or some entity lumps these things together and ties it to a protest movement, the have an agenda other than the one they hide behind. You can be a Democrat, or a Democrat in exile, or a Democrat at heart, and hate Obama, hate his economic policies, hate his corporate associations and how they selected, then elected him, and want your party back. That doesn’t make you a traitorous Democrat, and it shouldn’t make you a potential Republican. The rightwing Tea Party movement exploits that frustration at the suffering rank and file Democrats’ expense. That it also similarly exploits the rank and file Republicans is much less of a concern to me.
Oh, and about Nader, from what I can gather, these guys gave him money and used him like Perot, to divert just enough votes for them to win. At least, that’s what I read in a couple of the gazillion articles I read. Can’t remember which ones exactly though. Sorry.
Ralph needs to do what he is good at and it’s not running for President. He needs to scream over that POS PUMA car GM is pimping. There was a time when Ralph would have had a stroke if he saw something like that being produced. As a Presidential candidate, I’m sorry but he’s a seedy eccentric bust.
He DEFINITELY affected the 2000 election. Although I’m not so sure now that was bad, considering we wouldn’t be able to afford to eat or turn on our lights if Mr. Inconvenient Truth were in charge. Unfortunately, what we got in his place wasn’t any better. Like I said, two useless parties ruled by greedy machine bosses.
I think there are many people who joined in the tea parties with sincerity. I also think the entire thing was appropriated by the far right when they saw the potential–and plenty of people are being used. When you see somebody like Beck pushing things, a man whom I trust as far as I an throw him regardless of how suddenly sincere he seems, I tune out. I have to admit he’s putting on a good show but the truth is he’s a right cliff whackjob. I count him among the Top Three of Hillary bashers and he can just kiss my ass.
Both parties have been hijacked by extremist whackjobs and I am not playing.
I think Cinie has some major points here to ponder. I certainly have no intention of getting caught in the clutches of one hanging-off-the-cliff extreme just to get rid of another. Neither of them represent me or give a rat’s butt about me. I am not going to be used by either of these hijacked parties ever again. Until one of these two parties are returned to common sense positions, I don’t want to know either of them.
As for campaigns, you can’t argue with Cinie that most ads you see on TV are actually owned and sponsored by groups who have their own interest and profits at heart. It doesn’t matter whether it’s Moveon or Citizens for ‘Whatever’. I think Soros is just as big an asshole as Armey. They just live in two different swamps as far as I’m concerned, but they are still swamp rats.
For those of you who are gay or lesbian, I would like you to remember, if you were old enough, how Armey stood live on national TV with that horse’s ass Gingrich, flashing that Contract On America and calling Barney Frank “Barney Fag”. Now, I think Barney is not emotional stable and he most certainly was KEY in bringing down America by covering for Fannie Mae and helping to make sure people who could never pay for a home got a mortgage, but it is not acceptable to be calling him “Barney Fag”. Dick Armey is a piece of crap. Those guys didn’t get thrown out of power for nothing. Why on earth would anybody want them back in power?
As for their efforts against health care, I recognize the far right wing stench from the Clinton days. Same people, the health insurers and pharma companies specifically, crying SOCIALIZED MEDICINE. What they did to Hillary will NEVER be forgivable from where I sit, no more than it is forgivable from Barack The Pig Obama.
When I see guys like Newt showing up at tea parties, I know I am screwed before I even get moving. My memory just isn’t that short. Since when does he represent regular people? We didn’t hear one word at those tea parties from all the people who took over the microphones about credit card companies gouging the people. We didn’t hear one single alternative from those bigshots on the health insurance issue while they blew it out of their orifices at the microphone. If they gave a shit about the real people in America, they would have come up with a sensible alternative long ago instead of porking billions into keeping things status quo. Maybe then we wouldn’t be stuck with a borderline Communist as President.
The Republican Far Right isn’t kidding me. They only embraced PUMAs for votes. They couldn’t care less about women either. The only passion the far right has is the passion to take over again and be just as bad as what we have now. It’s truly unfortunate that the Republican party doesn’t have leaders as good as some of their members are. Ditto for the Democratic Party. Two pea parties in a pod. Different extreme. Same screw job.
Chit I ranted. Sorry.
Loved it!
The only small point I disagree with is, I’m convinced this Tea Party seed was planted, not co-opted by the right. They are just good at covering up footprints. However, when I think back to the 1984 anti-Hillary video and who it was eventually traced back to, (Blue State Digital, Obama’s internet guys) but, the Obama Girl video is to this day still classified as “true grassroots,” which I don’t buy for a second, I don’t buy the “merely opportunistic” copout for Tea Parties, either. There IS populist rage, but it didn’t focus itself into a movement.
People are so easily manipulated! It seems we can pat ourselves on the back for having seen through one scheme, only to have fallen for another. No, I didn’t get fooled by either Obama or the Tea Party, but I can’t help wonder what I did unwittingly support. Like Jane Wagner said (speaking through Lily Tomlin), “I’m afraid that no matter how cynical I become, it won’t be enough.”
Cinie, another best-think-of-the-day.
Hmm… You are slowly drawing me to your point of view. Admittedly, I was (am?!?) sympathetic to the Tea Parties. In my view the history and practice of most ‘movements’ consists approx. 75% astroturfing. And if special interests don’t engineer the whole thing, they’ll find a way to hijack it in the latter stages. The reason they ultimately come apart is because enlightened minds can separate the issues from the personalities, party labels and cool sounding slogans. And the great wheel keeps turning …
I was with you till you got to allegations of my being an astroturfee. It just ain’t so, girl.
Check out my Tea Party posts here for the facts, ma’am, just the facts, as I know them:
http://sisu.typepad.com/sisu/tea-parties/
I stand by my post. Don’t believe me, check my links.
Check out HER links.
No. More. Wings. Far left wing, Far right wing=same coin.
Huh? I get the far right/left thing, but I thought Sissy was supporting the Tea Parties. Did I miss something over there?
No you didn’t miss anything hon. I probably did. lol. What I was alluding to is she appears to be a right wing republican if her blogroll has anything to do with anything, which is ok because it’s still America. But it’s hardly like being one of us PUMAs sitting on an Island with no party at all. Like I said, plenty of people joined the tea parties on their own with sincere thoughts. I just happen to agree they are all being used by the far right because none of our issues were addressed. I am sure that most of the Democrats who participated wouldn’t be very happy with Newt Gingrich’s agenda any more than we are loving what Obama’s up to. I’m all for embracing republicans since I live among them in real life with love, but I am not so sure I can vote for that kind of agenda ever. The discussions at those tea parties I saw on FOX did not sing to me at all. The only fun part was when they trashed that CNN reporter who is now on “vacation”.
—Although I give them credit for their organizing skills, whomever did it. One must almost have to be an Obamazoid to put that together so well. But until the Republicans start moving to the center and removing their noses from people’s personal lifes, beating up on gays and lesbians, etc…..I am afraid they are going to be living in the guest house for many years to come.
…….ducking and running….
Just for the record, I’m a Darwinian Libertarian. Live and let live, and keep your nose and your power grabs out of my life!
Little different than where most of us are coming from here, Sissy. That’s why I believe that a liberal, left winger of any stripe, who doesn’t like Obama, or the way he was elected and who he truly represents, has no more business at a Tea Party than they do at Daily Kos. Neither one reflects such a person’s values.
There are some parts of Libertarianism (is that a word?) that attract me, particularly the Mind Your Own Business part. But I also believe we could be living in a very lawless society if we just let the whole world do whatever the heck it wants. So now you understand why I have no party. I am a moderate. I think government has its place, just that its place isn’t EVERY place.
Moderate? Or, pragmatic?
Ad hoc practical, how’s that?
Libertarian isn’t the same as anarchy, or no government at all.
I’m for what the Founding Fathers created, a system of limited government with checks and balances to counter our species’ natural tendency toward totalitarianism.
I’ve never understood how you “limit” government. Where’s the line? If government is of the people…etc., don’t the people have the right to expect it to ensure the public good, blah, blah, blah?
The idea is for government to defend the borders, ensure the rule of law and sanctity of private property and get out of the way of citizens each pursuing her own idea of the pursuit of happiness. The Tenth Amendment spells it out:
“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
Seems like a lot of wiggle room in that definition to me. If “the people” want the government to have certain powers and authority not explicitly spelled out, then the government can’t be said to exceed its limits. “Ensure the rule of law,” in what regard? On what issues? Seems to open things up pretty widely to me.
The rule of law is the sine qua non. The federal government under Obama has made an unprecedented grab for power over the states.
Like Bush didn’t?
Yes, but not on the budget-busting scale of Obama. I carry no water for Bush’s domestic polices, by the way, while I believe history — if we survive! — will be look favorably upon his foreign policy.
Okay, Sissy, thanks for playing. We disagree.
All best to you.
Congratulations. You just made me speechless. Again.